Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

People are gonna get mad at us again

Jokes on them, I like that.

Rusty

It’s not incest it’s….. self love

but isnt self love more loving yourself? not like someone wlse in your mind? self love implies you can love yourself and another actual person, doesnt it?

Tulpas are just another version of yourself

yeah but if you actually fall in love with them and you wanted to date someone else, wouldnt that be cheating?

Oh, you all covered that. Redacted.

yeah but if you actually fall in love with them and you wanted to date someone else, wouldnt that be cheating?

@nat - jump It'd be just having a harem.

that sounds a bit wrong

Ain't nothin' purer than a three way, full love triangle. Disregard harems, and acquire true equality between all thoughtforms.

8:26 PM

That having been said a group of proper co-equal consorts + a harem or three for spice is the ideal.

8:26 PM

And just like that Zen and co. become polyfragmented

1

Brings a whole new meaning to front sticky.

Love triangles are pure alright... pure lewd

Hinduism, on the other hand, has a very simple and elegant explanation for what happened to those people. Hinduism says simply that they all experienced a tulpa. So what is a tulpa? The concept of a tulpa can probably best be explained by the following little thought-exercise: Try closing your eyes and, with your mind's eye, try to visualize the following pastoral meadow scene. In other words, you'll not just "think about" this scene, but will try to actually see it in your mind. You'll try to see a pleasant green grassy meadow on a warm sunny afternoon in early summer. You see a few white and yellow meadow flowers amongst all the lush grass. You're sitting in the grass under a big leafy shade tree, and you can feel the soft coolness of the grass under you. You hear some birds singing and you see the clear blue sky with only a few white billowy clouds in it. You smell the fresh sweetness of the grass and flowers and hear a small brook off in the distance. With your eyes closed, and concentrating, you try now to visualize that whole scene. It does take a certain amount of concentration and focus to be able to truly visualize a scene like that. Some people are able to do that kind of visualization fairly well, but it takes concentration and practice. Let's call this the first level of visualization.

3:15 PM

It does take a certain amount of concentration and focus to be able to truly visualize a scene like that. Some people are able to do that kind of visualization fairly well, but it takes concentration and practice. Let's call this the first level of visualization. The second level of visualization would be if you could see that same scene just as clearly, but this time instead of doing it with your eyes closed, you do it with your eyes open. That means you have to simultaneously not see, hear and feel the things that are actually there in the room with you, and you do see, hear and feel the whole meadow scene. To accomplish this with your eyes open would take a great deal of focus, concentration and practice, and most people are not really able to accomplish it very well. The third level of visualization would be if you could concentrate so fully, and see, hear and feel that whole meadow scene so clearly and in such rich and precise detail that other people around you could see it too. This would mean that you could visualize something so clearly that what you were visualizing would actually become an experienced reality for other people. And that is what a tulpa is.

3:15 PM

Full article here - https://philosophycourse.info/lecsite/lec-tulpas.html

That's a definition of "thoughtforms", not tulpa, in any context. They wrong.

3:20 PM

Tulpa originates for esoteric tantric tibetan buddhism btw. Where specifically refers to emanated psychic bodies that boddhis, the enlightened, are able to produce, when they recognize they always were everywhere.

3:20 PM

And of course, here, in tulpamancy, we use the term exclusively to mean an additional identity, and that doesn't have to include any level of visualization.

3:22 PM

Also when I say thoughtforms I mean the older, archaic use, of the term, which originates from western magic, not how it is used in tulpamancy. Generally with tulpamancy I would say thoughtform chiefly applies again, to mental constructs that are experienced as autonomous and self-contained, and usually possess at least rudimentary personality. Rather than to just "anything visualized at all".

Calyra (Lula!/Scarlet)

So what if a host makes a tulpa, and then they and that tulpa merge and the merge fronts? Would they feel any dissociation from the actions? (Of course I don't know you can still talk about the host anything in that case)

When I merged with Gray, we didn't have any weird dissociative stuff happen except with Aziraphale, which I think has more to do with us being tired and suggestible than it has to do with merging. Being a whole merge feels like being one switched-in entity, assuming that entity is merged with someone switched-in. Blue or Ryan couldn't take control from Granger (pre controlled switching) or Celestial (iirc post controlled switching)

nat

so im just finding out about this tulpa thing, and it seems cool, something I may even wanna try, but theres one big problem. im incredibly lonely and get super attached or maybe even crush on any potential friend i make. would i fall in love with my tulpa?

If you run into that, I think you guys can work it out. As long as you guys work out boundaries, I think you'll be okay.

Heller1111

Hinduism, on the other hand, has a very simple and elegant explanation for what happened to those people. Hinduism says simply that they all experienced a tulpa. So what is a tulpa? The concept of a tulpa can probably best be explained by the following little thought-exercise: Try closing your eyes and, with your mind's eye, try to visualize the following pastoral meadow scene. In other words, you'll not just "think about" this scene, but will try to actually see it in your mind. You'll try to see a pleasant green grassy meadow on a warm sunny afternoon in early summer. You see a few white and yellow meadow flowers amongst all the lush grass. You're sitting in the grass under a big leafy shade tree, and you can feel the soft coolness of the grass under you. You hear some birds singing and you see the clear blue sky with only a few white billowy clouds in it. You smell the fresh sweetness of the grass and flowers and hear a small brook off in the distance. With your eyes closed, and concentrating, you try now to visualize that whole scene. It does take a certain amount of concentration and focus to be able to truly visualize a scene like that. Some people are able to do that kind of visualization fairly well, but it takes concentration and practice. Let's call this the first level of visualization.

While I think this is interesting, I wouldn't consider myself to be exclusively a visualization. When I was younger, our visualization ability was really poor and Gray struggled with the mind's eye blanking out a lot. Even now, our visualization ability is okay but not impressive by any means. While I do have a form, I know some tulpas who don't have any forms at all.

Heller1111

Full article here - https://philosophycourse.info/lecsite/lec-tulpas.html

This sounds awesome

11:10 PM

@Breloomancer Maybe this is the "group hypnosis" you can use to help people see tulpas all along

11:11 PM

Maybe that's how Alexandra David-Néel saw the "Monk tulpa" too

We propose a theory about ourselves

This makes sense to me

2:10 AM

We confused switching for possession once, and these things can be heavily influenced by mindset

2:10 AM

I would give the theory a go, see what comes out of it

2:10 AM

@berockly (TTG)

A long kiss goodnight

@berockly (TTG)

Thats what we went with

We arent exactly sure how to proceed about it besides acting as if it were true

That's pretty much it

4:33 AM

A lot of tulpamancy is experimenting with new mindsets

This is something that's been bothering me about visualization- I strongly suspect our mindset on how to visualize is really limited. I'm curious how you guys approach how to visualize things. While thinking about something else, I realized our ideas for how to improve your visualization ability boil down to "think about it more". Having trouble imagining a chair? Think about what a chair is made of, the shape of the back, and what it tastes like if you're feeling adventurous. This approach isn't dependent on the object you're visualizing, nor does it matter how you break up the visualization task. While this approach is very flexible and useful, it feels very limited, one-wayish. I refuse to believe there's only one way to imagine something. I'm aware of a few other approaches, but there's only one I can think of that really counts. I suppose visualizing by staring at noise could be visualization, but I think that's really imposition/hallucinating things and not really seeing it with your mind's eye. I think the Tetris effect is better because that does create visuals in your mind, but you are dependent on an external source like a videogame to help you and I'm more interested in how people can imagine things on their own. (edited)

@A long kiss goodnight The way I see it, which naturally comes heavily from self-hynpsosis is such: You already know what a chair looks like. Your mind can automatically fully flesh out a random chair for you at any time. It's really not about making sure you individually put together the details of a chair consciously, but learning to just let your mind do that automatically. Earlier on, I had a lot more trouble with certain things because I thought they should be difficult, but as a side effect of exploring hypnosis and how easily you actually can visualize just by relaxing into visualization, I'm at the stage where I'm "just doing it". Visualizations don't become perfect or anything, this way, there are still inherent inconsistencies that I may or may not recognize and fix, but my experience has always been that the more I am able to just relax and just know I can visualize something, the easier and more complete it is, and that it has nothing to do with a skill of itself; the process of fixing a visualization that way doesn't help development of the skill. The skill is just in relaxation/acceptance itself and the mindset. (edited)

I'm too lazy to quote people in #lounge I think the problem with isolationism is the fact it is isolated. If you invent 4 years worth of new tulpamancy and nobody knows about it, then that won't contribute to the general knowledge pool or help anyone. I also find that isolationists tend to see themselves above everyone else, which just isolates them even more. People don't always like different ideas in general, but they especially don't like different ideas that come from someone who sees themself as better than everyone else. Unfortunately, I do see these traps being presented here- claiming that the word tulpa is diluted and hoping for the "greatest minds" to band together. I think there are lots of great minds around here. Even if they are more dogmatic in their approach, they typically have that one little thing you can't find somewhere else. I appreciate the isolationist's passion, however. Even when I'm struggling I still love tulpamancy at the end of the day. I'm very slow and I'll likely not publish anything exciting anytime soon, but I like to think about how tulpamancy works and try to find ways to see or do it differently. I think every field of tulpamancy has the potential to be innovated once again, even entry level concepts like vocality. I absorb ideas talking to others and I like to tweak my models as I go. I have received a lot of backlash for my approach. I have been told I overcomplicate things, I should only talk about results and not theory, etc. However, talking about the theory and building models is my favorite part. I guess it makes me a nerd and I have to be careful not to confuse a beginner, but it's what I like to do and I'm not interested in stopping. All that being said, I too need to not be too egotistical. I sometimes feel alone despite being among others and I fall into a similar version of that trap. At the end of the day, you get what you put in, and it doesn't matter how you start or how long it takes.

@Raptoir

I definitely like to see ways to do it differently. And maybe it doesn't matter if it's complicated or not so much as does it work for you all?

I made my first bit of progress on my tulpa! Although it isn’t much

2

4:12 PM

I discovered by feeling their presence that they were more masculine

(I realized the original discussion on this got flooded long ago so I'll talk about it here) I don't like to tell people they shouldn't doubt the experience, even if they need to set aside some of their doubt to make progress. I think it's important to have a skeptical approach to at least some extent, otherwise you run into problems with people picking up really obviously unhealthy mindsets. I also believe tulpamancy should be an informed choice, and if there's doubt about the process maybe there's a good reason for it. However, I agree that like anything else, too much or too little of something is a bad thing, doubt included. If you aren't making tons of progress after a few months, you may need to be more open to spontaneous thoughts and try to roll with things more.

Doubt is the cornerstone of rationality, which works in the physical world, but the imagination is irrational. Doubt is a habit carried into a context where it's no longer useful.

For me, telling people not to doubt has the right conclusion but it is phrased incredibly badly. When you say not to doubt it sounds like you're telling them to live a delusion "ignore what you know to be true and just say the tulpa is real". Like you mention, that's super harmful and most people will see right through it - it will never be genuine. Worst case, they could end up living a delusion, building ever more elaborate schemes to explain why their tulpa is a person despite the numerous glaring flaws they experience. But also like you mention, so is doubt. Imagine someone is building a house. They lay the foundation, build the walls, and you show up a week later. They're sitting in their living room looking sad. "Well I'm not sure this is a real house, every time it rains it gets wet". Well, yeah, you never built the roof! If you spend all your time questioning and finding proof your tulpa isn't there you're just accidentally anti-forcing, dissipating your tulpa one chip away at a time. In my opinion, instead, doubt should register to you that your tulpa is flawed and you have more work to do. It should also tell you that you have unrealistic expectations. Stop expecting your tulpa to secretly be a fully formed person reaching out to contact you and start expecting your tulpa to be something you create. Once you see those flaws as things to work on instead of crippling signs your tulpa isn't real the doubt stops being a problem and starts being a helpful tool to figure out how you should be forcing tomorrow.

I don't see any logical contradiction with any of that. But I would say that in terms of praxis both of those ideas are usually useless by themselves. The last part of your statement Ranger, touches on a better approach: Asking people what they are doing and thinking and telling them concretely a better way of approaching it. Doubt is such an abstract thing. (that was directed at Ranger and Raptoir) (edited)

I also feel that as long as you separate yourself from the doubt, and are having a more "healthy" doubt, you should be fine (no i didnt read the entire conversation, this is just my take)

Kind of smashing together what Reguile and Zen said, I agree doubt is vague and it's unhelpful to say "stop doubting" without context. If the problem is assuming your tulpa is a fully formed person day 1, you're going to have doubts about them being a real tulpa or not. This is part of what inspired my exploration advice, I aim to tear down the baseline assumption a young tulpa already has opinions when odds are good they do not. I also think Reguiles's roof example is another good example of this and why I like to remind people you can create a tulpa from literally roleplaying and faking it because your tulpa can develop and grow from a blank slate. I agree skeptical thought can make it harder to enjoy the more wild parts of the mind, otherwise people accusing me of overthinking things wouldn't exist. I'm very used to people struggling with being too open and having too many tulpas they don't want or blindly accepting everything they hear about tulpas as fact believing tulpamancy is an actual science. I greatly worry that a lot of people really need to be taught basic common sense while learning how to create a tulpa

If someone was gaslighted into believing they had DID, could that situation form a Tulpa?

I mean, I guess?

And if that does happen, out of curiosity what's the best course of action?

Aside from therapy?

Yes.

So, if this hypothetical situation were to happen, what would this person's relationship with the tulpa be like?

3:48 PM

Both in terms of the actual content: Do they help each other, do they build one another up. And in terms of ... the physical nature of their interactions: Do they experience any sort of negative dissociative effects such as the loss of time, depersonalization or derealization. The answers to those questions heavily dictate the answer.

3:49 PM

And even within those possibilities there is the matter of simple choice.

I would not trade the gaslighting for tulpamancy in this case. Distance and time first. I'd spend a few weeks or months away from any of these influences, seeing a therapist if possible. Get back to a baseline. Then come back and evaluate once things are settled. Once back, read about the topic as much as possible and start to feel out where you think you are.

Completely random question- nevermind, I answered my own question. I noticed someone calling themselves "not a person" and it made me wonder if any tulpas go out of their way to identify as it/not a person/etc. I then realized yes, I know tulpas who do this, including my headmate Dream who did that for awhile before warming up to being a tulpa. I think we talked about tulpas who didn't identify as individuals or human before, so I want to take a different direction. How many tulpas ironically go around saying they're inhuman or not an individual, and how long? Beyond the occasional tupperbox joke and rib I don't know if a lot of tulpas actually joke about this either. I don't think I know anyone who thought it would be funny to keep this up for more than a few seconds, but I never asked before. (edited)

my girls literally don't identify as human so

6:30 PM

they maintain that they're individuals at least

Without putting any effort into creating a personality for your tulpa, your tulpa will basically have the same personality as you

I get what AZ is saying here (no effort into making your tulpa separate = they will be very similar to you) but I just realized if it's even possible for a tulpa to be exactly like you, especially if you force your tulpa. Assuming you're not intending on being the same person or identifying as the same person, is it even possible to accidentally have a tulpa that's almost exactly like you?

That's what happened over here

8:44 PM

I came out almost identical to Shake except with a female form, and we didn't care to "force" further distinctions

Yeah, we did like 5 minutes of personality forcing in total so I ended up basically the same as him, until I deviated as I got older of course

8:59 PM

We're still very similar, although I am the better version

It is genuinely strange to me, at least in retrospect, that people don't want to differentiate their tulpas from themselves. Ignoring the simple fact I would absolutely not get on well with myself, I would also probably be a little bored at our interactions.

I went through great depths to design Chess's personality from scratch, and force every aspect of it early on. It was not quite like I am, actually, many traits were pretty different, but several were also agreeable to what I found agreeable. Obviously she changed, but it's been pretty stable and close to the blueprints over the years, personal development aside. Back when chess was barely vocal in 2012, and could only really just nod or shake her head consistently, I had her take an MBTI personality test. In 2018, she took it again. We couldn't even remember the questions were were reading, let alone her answers, and it was kinda like she was taking it for the first time. Her score? Same as 2012: ESTJ.

12:10 AM

At least we had temporal reliability.

12:11 AM

Also, as to my own personality, it's INTJ. So yes, we're not SUPER different, but we are in a few ways.

I have one who was just the argumentative side of me who played Devil's Advocate in my head, then I responded to it as an actual person and it stuck.

7:46 AM

I don't see the point in forcing new traits if they're already there. Feels mean, when they can develop on their own from there.

I think it's pretty easy to be similar to your host because you live in the same brain and draw from similar experiences. Unless the tulpa goes out of their way to seek different experiences, there will be similarities, and even then, your headmate may be inspired by what you do. I think personality forcing gives you a goal to chase, but at the end of the day you are who you are. Some of my headmates rejected their personality forcing while some held onto it tightly.

In retrospect many of the issues I had with Mika, who is the only "home-grown" tupper I possess, can be distinctly attributed to having the way I think specifically turn on itself internally. None of that nonsense happened with the two fictionals, who while none the less being perturbed that their existence up until that point was a lie, also developed to be distinctly different people than me immediately and sharply. And I can also got along with them much easier. That all means however, that if your personality gets on well/would get on well with itself then I imagine your experience might be considerably better. Me, I'm often scathingly judgemental in my internal monologue by default, and that doesn't translate well to having two people like that bouncing off of each other.

Scathingly judgmental in your internal monologue even to this day?

4:39 PM

I assumed you were free of that... unless it's like, "playful"?

The amount of distinction doesn't matter as much for getting along as where the distinction is drawn

4:49 PM

If you choose to separate yourself along deeply held or foundational beliefs then you are going to have deeply personal and catastrophic disagreements

4:52 PM

You see this a lot in newbies with some tulpa-adjacent skill already, who have an active tulpa that's distinguished from the host by things like belief in rationality or the value of emotion

4:53 PM

(e.g. such things as evil tulpas, infant tulpas, apparently supernatural tulpas)

What to do then?

About what?

Raptoir

You see this a lot in newbies with some tulpa-adjacent skill already, who have an active tulpa that's distinguished from the host by things like belief in rationality or the value of emotion

.

Oh, well in that case the host should try to connect the tulpa to reality more. By that I mean literally "coming to one's senses" - allowing the tulpa to experience the world as you see/understand it.

5:06 PM

When thoughtforms act without a basis in reality, they are acting exclusively according to their character/personality. I.e. demons act like demons, your internal model of your friends act like your friends, your tulpa acts like your tulpa. So the goal here and with tulpamancy in general is to change the definition of <your tulpa> to include connection to reality. (edited)

Unfastened Belts

Scathingly judgmental in your internal monologue even to this day?

I am not permanently in a playful mood, despite what the horni might imply. What I am describing is not an emotional state, it is my way of thinking. I deconstruct and make observations, pretty much constantly. I also do it when being playful. When I say judgmental I don't mean "Gah you're the worst and I hate you because you're flawed in this way." I am neither particularly like that to myself or to others, unless I'm extremely angry, which of course takes escalation to get to. Most importantly it is the reaction to that behaviour that was the problem. It's no issue for me at all, there's no issue with me saying to myself "Ah, that was profoundly dumb of me." and smirking to myself and moving on. The main issue, I think, was the manner in which Mika specifically responded before his personality alteration. Rhys responds emotionally like ... he's in on the joke, as it were? It is breathtakingly difficult for me to offend Rhys, and when I do his responses tend to be ultimately quite pleasant too... And as for Asterion, he is such an insufferably sweet lil bean there seems to be very little room for malice or grudges in his responses to anything. But Mika got defensive, which was also my response to Mika's defensiveness, usually. All of this was an observation of past behaviour, by the way, Mika these days is more happy-go-lucky.

6:04 PM

Also @Unfastened Belts , since you're clearly angling at suffering here. I'm curious, do you consider jealousy suffering, though a temporary form of it? With the caveat of me myself dissociated from it, and responding to that particular emotion with amusement and poking at it like a child. We may have technically systemically experienced suffering recently! Though I'd be tempted to handwave it as the result of an uncertain state one experiences when adopting a new paradigm, what with the new tupper and all. (edited)

Well it's interesting that you say "not an emotional state but rather a way of thinking". Roger says emotional states are circumstantial pleasure/pain, whereas suffering is (at its root) a certain type of thinking. However, "that was profoundly dumb of me smirks and moves on" doesn't sound like suffering to me - as you said, suffering would be more along the lines of "that was profoundly dumb of me, so I have to hate myself". Which is what I associate when someone describes their inner monologue as scathingly judgmental :) (edited)

6:18 PM

"Responding with amusement and poking at it like a child" also doesn't sound like suffering to me

Unfastened Belts

"Responding with amusement and poking at it like a child" also doesn't sound like suffering to me

This is why I said systemically. Rhys was... substantively less amused.

Heh, I see

Adorable really. As I mentioned, I rarely have ammunition to get to him with.

Still depends I think. "Pure emotion" isn't suffering, but thinking about it in terms of "I deserve better, they shouldn't be doing this" probably would be

6:21 PM

But Roger also says

6:21 PM

"If there is peace of mind 99 % of the time... who cares?" :)

It was more along the lines of "This person is replacing me, I am insufficient and a failure."; Especially because there are parallels between Rhys and Asterion that do not exist between Rhys and Mika, though they are only superficial and abstract in light of their radically different outlooks and personalities.

That does sound like suffering

That concept only makes my shit-eating grin wider, you know?

Ahaha

Hello all

12:37 AM

I think I am going to get back into tulpas

Woo